To Can, or not to Can?

[cork]

Hey, all.

I've been reading through a lot of the posts here, and something struck me as odd. Grape is a HUGE advocate of natural game, but the statistically proven most successful PUAs in the world use canned openers and rehearsed gambits. Now, I've only been in the game for a while, but I've found that it certainly helps to have a rough outline drawn out of when and when not to qualify/disqualify, and it's even good in certain settings to have an opener here and there, ready to whip out just because you come up with the perfect thing to say...

My point is this: Grape, you can't possibly mean that you think ANY predetermined material is the devil? If I'm wrong and you don't, then correct me, by all means.

I'm not at all qualified to pass judgement on this, but it seems like the perfect mix should about 10% gambits to 90% natural game, unless youre a crazy good actor and can pull off more lines. You need to have a sketch of the conversation's structure. Aside from that, yes, everything should flow easily.

Or is that what you're already saying?

[Deleted]

See, everyone uses routines sometimes. I view it as a crutch though.

But....

Everybody has to start somewhere and I would lie if I said there wasn't a period in my life where I didn't use routines. I say just do what feels natural and maybe throw a few routines in there to spice it up a bit.

[cork]

ok, but then how much is it really PU if you never use any guidelines? Or am I missing the point?

[nino g]

I think natural game is more of ur identity and yes thinking up shit on the spot, with the same
intentions as stacked routines, ex: DHV, Negs, ect..
So grape is a rockstar or somthing, but say he wants to open a set he could be like

Grape: "Hey ive been thinking this all day i only got a sec but, are girls
more attracted to rockstars or rappers?" (anyone could use this but if she asked u why do u ask, saying "idk i was just wondering would seem weird, so always have a reason guys")

now ur not in a band(not that i know of) so u wouldent be using that as ur idenetity unless,
u lie and the target would eventually find out.. if u dated her, but i usally just
use guidelines.. for instance meet attract isolate emotional connection then make a physical
connection <--- now note these are guidlines i follow.. of course theres push pull setting frames all that but i just use it to transition from each stage..
ex
btw styles c vs u routine would be perfect for this just saying
fathom:"Hey what ur impression of this smile?" <----my opener in class
girl:"cheesy but cute"
Fathom::"Well i noticed u smiled when i asked u, and urs is cheesier then mine missy"..
girl:hahahaa bs no but urs is cute though
Fathom:"thanks ur fun to talk to u should hangout with me sometime, Girl(w.e her name is)
give me ur number"..

this is almost always happens in class, i dont use it no more cuz some girl tried to
expose me for using pick up lines,i told her i think ur trying to pick me up
having me in this corner leaned up against a wall trying to tell me ur true feelings.
of course she just walked away and never said anything idk why.. but yah hope this helps
in a wayy, getting numbers arent a big deal i just use them so i have a reason to meet them again, thats why i dont sit in a conversation for 30min with a girl working up the balls to ask for her number, it shouldent be that way pfft ill ask random girls for there numbers and i get it sometimes..others say noo but who cares??

[cork]

Ok. so we're all on the same page. Good. But then there really are people like Mystery and Sinn, and however outdated they are, you can't deny that they get results. and 95% of everything they say is scripted. Is that just skill?

[Deleted]

No. Inner game is the answer. With solid inner game, you don't need opinion openers, false time constraints or any of that shit. Just go up to a girl and start a conversation.

Also, I'll leave you with this thought.

How many times have Zan or David DeAngelo tried to kill themselves? How many times has Mystery?

[cork]

Right, we all know that Mystery and DeAngelo aren't people to follow. That's because they've lost that special feeling that only comes from being genuine and original with girls. They gave that up to their repetitive, million-dollar lines that end up becoming more important to them than the girls they use them on. But I'm going to have to disagree with Aaron. The ability to pass off gambits as genuine thought DOES require skill. More so even than natural game. However, what use is it to be able to get the girls the same way every time if, as a result, we don't care as much about the rewards? The point is, like it or not, Mystery revolutionized the game, and we can learn from his successes AND his mistakes. So, no. Don't go canned. But It would be foolish to write off everything ANYONE says, and Mystery does have so much to offer. Natural game is better. We got that. But every Pickup needs to follow a certain structure:

1) Open.
Always open with something ungeneric, just to keep the group's interest higher. doesn't need to be written in fact it generally shouldn't, but for new PUA's it can be good to have a few ideas of what you're going to say, with room for variation.

2) Disqualify.
Now, I know this is borderline mystery method, but if you bear with me, this is a natural skill that any guy (AFC or PUA) should have. It's a way of testing girls' reactions, which brings me to:

3) Look for IOIs.
There are tons of ways to do this, because there are literally hundreds, even thousands of different kinds of IOIs. The best course of action here is to pick the most likely IOIs to come up, and test for them as required (for example, it's almost always a must to wear some kind of accessory. It's the whole point of Peacocking).

4) Qualify.
This is another point which makes it look like I'm advocating a script. But trust me, even in natural game, there has to be some kind of a system to go by, or else you're just trying your luck. The Three IOI Rule is a good point of reference. Right after the third one touches down, it's safe to indicate your interest. But in order to smoothlyt transition, you sometimes (depending on the situation or girl) have to be roundabout. Ask them why they're special, or hell, even use Mystery's BHRR method. Just keep it real and natural, and don't get too caught up in what to say. Relax. You're in it for the fun.

5) Time constraint
I wasn't sure where to put this, since these are only a "sometimes". The thing about natural game is you have to be, to some extent, truthful. Time constraints are, in essence, a lie. If you ever want to see this girl again, practice being honest. I really just use time constraints when I need a way out after I've screwed up, which does happen from time to time. If you can tell you aren't getting anywhere, if you realize the girl isn't as hot as she was five minutes ago, or if for any other reason you just need out, hold off for a little while and then take your cue and leave. You sometimes have to make up a reason, and that's what a time constraint is good for.

6) Close.
After you pick up three IOI's, it's technically ok to close. Qualifying is just a way of showing her that you're interested, too, but definitely do it, because that's what makes natural game, well, natural: your genuine interest. Kiss close, Number close, etc. Whatever you do, just make sure it's a smooth transition, or else the whole pickup just kind of fizzles, and you're left with a girl or group of girls who see you as the almost hot guy. Be spontaneous, but at the same time, slowly build the moment up to the point you're trying to reach. (Also, be sure to observe the 7-hour rule on F-closing)

So, yes. Mystery and David DeAngelo are bad examples of role models, but there are still things to learn from them. Game is game because you play it, and unless you have a system, the Game will play you.

And then what separates you from every AFC on the planet?

[Alek]

Well see, this is how I view natural game. You NEED to have an outline, and know whats going on and what to do from there. Thats a given, and you need to be aware.

And as far as natural game, you need to learn the concepts and reasoning behind why routines, or gambits work in the first place. If its an iod, you need to know what the purpose of using that would be and what the result very well may be. You need to understand different principles of why they work, then once you get it, you can just make up stuff from the top of your head.

If you have ths proper subcoms though, you should be ok. But routines are great, you just gotta understand why they work and build from there

[Paetar]

This is a great question. I completely agree with Alek. I can only tell my view:

I go natural. Not successful as much as I'd want, BUT it's the most fun. I love spontaneity and honesty and you can't get much of it from canned material. You'll always be you. However, natural game depends on your mood, much more than canned material.
To be really good with natural game, you need to have your inner game tip-top, AND know what to do.

Knowing what to do - what to say, how to say it - is the best thing about canned game. You also know what results will you be getting, exactly. IF you do it right.

I personally do natural stuff - just to enjoy myself. Sometimes I use few routines though (games really; The Cube and the question game, perhaps best friends test (when I really don't know what to say and have to "impress" the girls quickly) and my saving brother from a bully story in comfort/late attraction (almost every attraction switch possible, plus I really like to talk about it).
Put simply, when I don't know what to do, I do some cans.

[SenorBubbz]

Natural game = never saying the same thing twice

[Alek]

^ thats bullshit. Because even naturals run the tell the same stories, say the same shit, use the same lines ect.

[sparkogre]

This part especially, irritated me:


^{How many times have Zan or David DeAngelo tried to kill themselves? How many times has Mystery?}

You're trying to make it seem that the way you go about trying to get better at socializing is going to form an integral part of who you are. Does it matter that Mystery tried to kill himself? Not really. That's like saying you're a guitarist who would rather learn Eric Clapton's songs rather than Kurt Cobain's because Clapton didn't try to kill himself.

All it is, is a method.


And if you honestly think that using routines encroaches on your sense of personal integrity, you have a weak sense of self. How the fuck should what you talk have any effect on yourself?

[manslaughter]

i think if you find a way that works and you like it more power to ya and who cares what everyone else does off this forum i certainly wouldn't condemn anyone for that

[nutrick]

Sept 2, 2009 21:54:40 GMT -5 sparkogre said:

This part especially, irritated me:


^{How many times have Zan or David DeAngelo tried to kill themselves? How many times has Mystery?}

You're trying to make it seem that the way you go about trying to get better at socializing is going to form an integral part of who you are. Does it matter that Mystery tried to kill himself? Not really. That's like saying you're a guitarist who would rather learn Eric Clapton's songs rather than Kurt Cobain's because Clapton didn't try to kill himself.

All it is, is a method.


And if you honestly think that using routines encroaches on your sense of personal integrity, you have a weak sense of self. How the fuck should what you talk have any effect on yourself?

weak sense of self.. which is what inner game tries to improve. routines are just the bandaid to the flesh gaping wound. it only temporarily fixes the outside. inner game - having a strong sense of self, of identity, defining on your own terms who you are-- is where it's at.

if you honestly think that pick up is just something you do--separate from your regular, "normal" self, you are certainly getting the wrong picture. girls dont want some pick up artist guru who knows how to please her, she wants to know the real you. showing her anything else is inauthentic, fake, phony, not real, whatever.

so it's not the routines itself, it's what's going behind the routines, why you use them in the freakin first place. it's about your intention in using them. so routines themselves aren't the problem, it's how you use them. for example, if i was some inconfident little bitch who tried to just spit some routine line for line, then we have a problem. it'll convey incongruency, and even if it doesn't, how long can you put up the front? sooner or later she'll find you out.

quit fucking looking for the "100% successful" pick up line, and do some work on yourself. if you were looking for instant gratification with women when you came here, get the hell out, i'm tired of people who try to be successful WITHOUT putting in the godamn work required to be successful. success doesn't come with the realization of it, but with the effort and work put into it.

Patrick

[Chris]

back to the original question...

if your trying to be a world great PUA, you have to learn both
styles of game. I like natural game but I also like throwing some
routines in there now and then cuz theyre fun for me. eventually
you even find yourself vibing with routines. (your just vibing with
her and suddenly you start using a routine you know because
it just flows witht he topic of conversation.)

another point, David DeAngelo is a VERY good role model. and
there is NO WAY IN HELL gurus are 95% scripted. period. maybe
in JUST the attraction phase but it would be absolutely ridiculous
to have that much canned material throughout the whole pick up.

Natural game does NOT mean NO ROUTINES. Naturals have cool
stories that have happened in their life. They use those stories
repeatedly. Call it a routine, call it a story, whatever. The point
is that naturals use their own routines sometimes. I guess the
difference is its their OWN material. There was also a story
about Mehow's natural friend who had a notebook full of 300
funny lines he would say.

My view is, learn both, strive to be natural EVENTUALLY.